Amy Sussman/Getty
“With every case, I see an opportunity to help or to change something or to give back.”
For Ashley Flowers, host of the podcast Crime Junkie, success was unforeseen. “I wasn’t expecting it to be what it is.” And what it is, is the number one true-crime podcast in the country. But if she had to pinpoint a reason, Flowers says it’s like “sitting down with their two best friends” (Flowers’ friend Brit Prawat co-hosts). Flowers views her work as a mission. “I’m like, the reason these people continue to get away with what they get away with is because nobody wants to talk about it.” The show’s success has led Flowers to create the production company audiochuck, getting into “publishing, we are venturing into TV and film, we’re looking at products,” but that “podcasting will always be the core.” It also led Flowers to publish her first novel, bestseller All Good People Here (Bantam, 2022), which she says was “a whole different process, writing a book versus writing a podcast episode.” But ultimately, it all comes back to what Flowers can do to create change. “With every case, I see an opportunity to help or to change something or to give back.”
SUBSCRIBE TO THE PARTING SHOT WITH H. ALAN SCOTT
ON APPLE PODCASTS OR SPOTIFY
Editor’s Note: This conversation has been edited and condensed for publication.
You know you have an addictive podcast when people like me will refrain from listening for a few weeks just to save up episodes to listen to on a road trip.
It’s so funny, because people always tell me like, “Oh, don’t bother releasing stuff around the holidays. Nobody listens.” And I was like, “I’m pretty sure that’s when I’m always looking to listen to stuff.” We launched Crime Junkie that week before Christmas, or whatever. Because I was like, nobody puts out podcasts at this time, this is when I need it the most.
What do you think it is about Crime Junkie that resonates so strongly with people?
Well, I made the show that I kept looking for. And I think that I’ve always kind of used myself as the potential listener. For me, what I love about the show and what I wanted to create was something that really was victim-centric, that really stayed on track. I have terrible ADD, so I was like, “I don’t want to get lost inside stories or theories, I really do want to just give you the facts.” I think that that’s a big part of it. I also think just me and Brit being hosts from the middle of America, when you so often see hosts from a lot of the bigger cities, I think there’s something [about] people relating to us a little bit. And I think we were the first show in the true-crime genre that really gave people a next step. I was always consuming true-crime content in a ton of different forms and I would be outraged, I would be mad, and I want to do something. But I’m like, “Now what? I don’t even know where to start.” And so I wanted to make sure we gave that to people. Like if you’re upset about this, if you want to see something done, here are the next things you can do.
I think the Midwest thing is actually spot on. Do you find people connect with you and Brit in a more personal way?
Yeah, I think that’s why they feel like they’re sitting down with their two best friends, which is what I wanted the show to feel like. Not so much that we’re talking at them, but with them. And they really do feel like they’re one of us.
How did it all get started? What was the impetus to start the podcast? And was it scary?
For me, it wasn’t scary, because I wasn’t expecting it to be what it is. I just saw so many people who didn’t have a background in broadcast in anything else get to do this. And the barrier to entry was so low. There’s not a world where I could have gotten into this if I would have had to go the route that you do with TV or even radio. So I just had such a passion for not just true crime, which I have had a passion for since I was very, very young—I got it from my mother who got it from her mother before her—but I really fell in love with podcasting. And I consumed it all. I mean, that’s why I called it Crime Junkie, there just literally was not enough. And like I said, I kept waiting for this one show and it wasn’t coming. At the same time, I had this other kind of life, my personal life, where I was volunteering with Crime Stoppers and eventually I was on their board of directors, and they kind of had this mission for me of, “Hey, no one your age really knows what we are, they’re still confusing us with Scruff McGruff the dog or whatever. Can you just do some local brand awareness?” And so I thought that maybe I could do these two things together. I was like, “Oh, how cool if I could be this like Indianapolis podcast, I could do some promo or some word of mouth for what Crime Stoppers is while telling these stories.” And again, I was just hoping it’d be some cool indie thing, and it just exploded. I think when I started, I was really intentional about the first episodes, because we came out with two or three the first time and it was [about] missing Niqui McCown and the murder of Laci Peterson, because what I wanted to show people was that I will tell you the stories that you haven’t heard, that are not everywhere, like we’re going to find new ones, but also, I’m going to tell you the ones that you think you’ve heard a bunch of different times, but maybe from a different perspective, or at least get you to think about it differently. Even if you don’t walk away feeling different, I will get you to ask the hard questions. And so that’s what I wanted people to see with those first episodes is that they’re gonna get a range of things from me.
How do you decide the stories you’re going to tell?
The stories come to us in a bunch of different ways. So obviously, when I first started, it was just what cases I heard in my however many years of life that really stuck out to me among everything, because they’re probably going to stick with others. But then once the show really got going, cases are coming at us from all different angles. We have a case suggestion form online, which are used by listeners who just are telling us stories that they want to hear about. But we also get contacted by family members of victims and by law enforcement. We also have a team that’s actively going out and trying to find the cases that aren’t reported on and then going and trying to hunt down law enforcement or family members. So it really is kind of all over the place. A minimum of like 30 percent of them need to be of persons of color or minority communities. I think last year we’re hitting closer to 50 percent. So there are certain advocacy things that we have, we want to talk about X, Y and Z issues this year, what cases can we highlight that really highlight that issue or that nonprofit, or whatever that is. It’s a wild formula that goes into deciding what comes out every week.
You know, that’s so key, and I think Crime Junkie does a great job of highlighting cases that often get overlooked by the media.
Thank you. And it was a big issue for me. When we first started, and I had no resources, I was in this like weird Catch-22, where I wanted to tell different stories, but I could only tell the stories that were reported on. So, a couple of years ago, when we had started to build out an actual team, we started hiring reporters to start doing that original reporting, so we can kind of be the solution to our own problem.
And the research that goes into each episode, it must insane. How much goes into crafting an episode?
Hundreds of hours of work. We have a research department now, we have writers, we have reporters, we have fact checkers, and then our editors, and our producers, so in a single episode you could be talking easily 120 hours at the minimum. And the only way we’ve been able to do that is because we have a team now. It’s not just me and Brit sitting in a spare room.
Because of the success of Crime Junkie, you’ve been able to create audiochuck, your network and production company. Where do you see yourself going with audiochuck? Do you think you’ll ever expand to content outside true crime?
Podcasting will always be our focus. Where audiochuck has already gone and continues to go is we’ve now got publishing, we are venturing into TV and film, we’re looking at products. So we’re doing a ton of stuff. But podcasting will always be the core; I love it to death. I hate when people make something like, “Oh, we’re gonna basically pilot this to see if it works for TV.” And I’m like, “I want to make something for the medium because I love that medium.” And if it turns into something else, that’s amazing. But podcasting will be our core, and I do want to branch out into other genres. But I want to do it thoughtfully. I think what people know is our core will always be true crime, that is what I know inside and out. That’s what I know how to make. But an example of how we’re going to branch out is we just recently brought on Jason Hoch, he was a formerly at Imperative and he is basically running a subnetwork called WAVLAND. We’re gonna have a couple of co-productions that are true crime-ish. But mostly what he’s gonna be focusing on is drama. Like that is what he is really good at. And most of them are gonna be true stories, but not necessarily crime, just great drama stories. And I think that’s how I plan to build out the network, finding someone who is great at the genre that they have and figuring out how we build out these subnetworks.
What I love on Crime Junkie is that you always offer ways to give back. What is Crime Junkie and audiochuck’s philanthropic goal?
I think our mission that we’ve kind of developed has always been that I don’t feel good about taking from the true-crime community without giving back. I think about it like a relationship, and no relationship is healthy if it’s one way. So if I every week I am going to be talking about the worst time in a family’s life or a person’s life, what am I doing to make it better, or make the world a better place or prevent something like that from happening? And I think that’s the approach that we take with all of our content. And so it can look very different. Sometimes we’ve done episodes where we talk about domestic violence and we’ve worked with a ton of different nonprofits that work in domestic violence. We’ve done stuff here locally, in Indianapolis. We did a big endowment with a domestic violence shelter. But it’s across the board. We’ve worked with so many different nonprofits that we just want to make sure we are giving back. I founded my own nonprofit called Season of Justice, with the goal being to raise funds for advanced DNA testing. Science is moving really quick. There’s a ton of cool stuff we can do to solve cold cases. But that’s not how the legal system works. The way that budgets are decided on years in advance, that money is just not there. So I kept coming across cases where we work with families or law enforcement, and over and over again, it was just money, that was the issue. And so I wanted to create a really clean way for them to just have this pool of money sitting there that they can apply for to help solve cases. I think the last report I got is there’s like 11 cases that have been solved, even more Jane and John Does that have been named. So again, I just want to make sure that we are giving back as well.
How would you suggest for listeners of Crime Junkie who might be inspired by a story to give back?
There are many ways that are case-specific. Usually, if there is a case-specific way, we talk about it in the episode, but for me, when I was just looking for how can I give back to this community before I had a podcast, or a platform or any financial stuff to give, I was like, “How can I give back my time?” And so I did a lot of researching on what organizations were available in my area. And there really weren’t a ton who were working on what my passion was, unsolved cases. And I think the thing that people will have to kind of come to terms with is it’s not as glamorous as you want it to be, right? I wanted them to hand me over the case files they don’t have time for, just let Ashley Flowers solve them. And it’s not what it was. It was board meetings and fundraising, and a lot of paperwork, like the boring stuff, but the boring stuff that needs to happen to keep things moving. And so there are plenty of organizations. Again, it’s what are people’s passion[s]? Is it a specific issue within the true-crime community? You could find a domestic violence shelter, you could find any number of things, or is it just unsolved crimes in general? There’s a ton of options. And that’s exactly what I did when I was younger.
Does a particular case come to mind that sticks with you?
I mean, every single one. I tell people [retaining information about cases is] my one superpower, and I’m glad I found a job where I can use my superpower about these cases. I think about all of the cases, I can rattle off all of the details of all of them. I think the ones that are probably the most top of mind are whatever ones I’m deep in at the moment. So I just came off of a year-long investigation into the murder of Darlene Hulse here in Indiana. That one is particularly frustrating, because it feels like there’s so much there and so much that can be done and what her daughters are facing is just a prosecutor’s office that isn’t moving. So there’s a lot of frustration there, and I’m just about to dive into a new case for The Deck Investigates [podcast] and that one I’m just starting to live in and get to know the people.
I have to say, The Deck is such a smart podcast. Telling stories based on the cases featured on the individual playing cards they distribute to prisons; it’s a perfect podcast idea.
Thank you. This all goes back to Crime Stoppers because when I was volunteering with [them], that’s where I came across my first deck and kind of had this idea for a very long time. However, I knew that I couldn’t start there because I knew it was going to take a team of reporters for us to put out a new episode every week and actually [go] to those places and meet with the detectives and collect that sound in person. It’s a heavy lift, but it’s so worth it.
Your novel All Good People Here is coming out in paperback in January. What made you want to write this book and go in that direction?
I had always had this idea in my head loosely—what if everyone was so busy trying to do the right thing and trying to protect people that they actually end up mucking it all up in the end? Slowly over the years, more details started to fill this story out. And I knew it was fiction. My agency had approached me about writing a memoir and, at the time, I was like, “I’m 31. I have not a whole lot to say; come back in 20 years.” But I went back to them and said, “Well, what about a fiction novel?” Any real crime junkie is not just consuming documentaries and true-crime podcasts. Like I loved Agatha Christie growing up. And they told me, “No, nobody wants that from you.” But I persisted, and it came to life. I was so proud of it because I really felt like that was the best way for me to tell this story that was kind of living in my brain. And it was exciting to see it come together because it is a whole different process, writing a book versus writing a podcast episode.
What kind of reactions have you gotten from the Crime Junkie community to the book?
They have been amazing. They loved it so much. And I felt validated that I I’m not the only crime junkie, who likes rejection, just like you said, like it was it wasn’t more than a hunch. I know, this group of people. And they, it was wonderful how much they loved it. But oh my God, when I tell you, it was like two days after release, and they’re banging down my door for a second one. I was like, “Girls, I just finished this.”
Because so much of what you do is so heavy, what do you to take care of yourself? How do you practice self-care amid so many dark and personal stories?
I always tell people that I believe there are certain people who are made to live in this world, like any kind of dark world. We’ve got detectives who if they can survive and thrive in it, they were made to. We actually have a show coming out this fall called Dark Arenas where every episode we interview someone who lives and works every day in some kind of dark arena. And I feel like I’m just one of those people. I can live in it day in and day out. I can even take it home and think about it at home. I want to think about it at home because I’m so invested. But I am blessed that I can compartmentalize. I wish it was a tool that I could teach people, but I can turn it off when it’s time to go home and play with my daughter. And all she wants to talk about is Winnie the Pooh. And then when she goes to bed, I can transition back into it, and it doesn’t get heavy for me the way that I think it might for most people. But with every case, I see an opportunity to help or to change something or to give back. If I wasn’t doing it, who would? I hope more and more people do, but I feel like the world’s a better place because of me doing this, which makes it a lot easier to do.
I’ve always thought that the reason people like us are into true crime is not because we’re into the gory details, but because we’re fascinated by what can bring a person to do such a thing? What do you think it is about the true-crime genre that people respond to so much?
Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, I always say that our brains want to solve puzzles. It’s why [when] you see something or hear something, your brain tries to wrap it around something it knows; it doesn’t like, uncertainty. And so I think that our brains are constantly looking to solve and to understand, if it’s unsolved, we want to put all the pieces together and figure it out. And even when it is, it doesn’t look right. Because most people can’t understand why that happened, or why that’s what the person resorted to. I also think that, from my own experience, when I used to consume just as a consumer, I would look for, what could I have done differently if I were in that situation? How can I protect myself? Because there’s so many cases, specifically involving children, nobody wants to talk about crimes against children, and I get it. I have a daughter, it is so hard. But I look at the stuff that’s happening and I’m like, “The reason these people continue to get away with what they get away with is because nobody wants to talk about it.” And so I think there is this bit of self-preservation in consuming stuff in the true-crime genre, that we’re hoping we can better protect ourselves.
Listen to H. Alan Scott on Newsweek’s Parting Shot. Available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Twitter: @HAlanScott